With Respect to Coldain Prayer Shawl, I loved that quest.

Yes, but in fairness you have to remember that you also enjoy crafting. My stance on this isn’t that people can’t enjoy something like the Coldain Prayer Shawl and that you should never have such a quest. My stance is that some people will really detest the crafting aspect so you need to give them another option.

That option could be to complete a separate quest with a comparable award or to simply branch the quest at some point so that players who don’t enjoy crafting can still complete the quest with a similar amount of effort but without the part they find unpleasant.

It’s very true that you can’t please everyone all the time but that doesn’t mean you should just accept a design that you know will make certain people unhappy.

I did not do the Symbol of Lect’Mun Sul but watched someone else do it. That one worked better. The raiders got a reward for defeating the named on top of the item crafted that helps later on. However the next time they went I found out they where missing a jeweler and could not do that event which sorta sucks. Being a jeweler myself I felt a bit guilty that I was not able to show up for that raid.

I rather enjoyed doing The Wurmslayer. It was the uberest weapon for a Swashbuckler at the time. However, many people complained about that quest for a number of reasons.
1. It requires crafting.
2. It requires raiding.
3. It required killing a contested raid mob.
4. What do you mean it doesn’t have a (insert weapon type) version?
5. For an item that had so many requirements, it wasn’t as uber as it could have been.
See, I think such rewards should make you want to do the quest. Now Wyrmslayer rots in my bag while I use this spiffy Qeynos Rapier (RE: there is no one handed version of wyrmslayer).

That being said, I think Wyrmslayer and Bone-Clasped Girdle are great examples of combining tradeskilling and adventuring into optional quest that require both.

With Respect to Coldain Prayer Shawl, I loved that quest. The same with the Earring Of The Solstice quest. I did not like the Coldain Ring Series though. However, the reson for liking one and not the other might seem strange. The reason was that I knew I could get the Prayer Shawl done but not the Coldain Ring. What it means is that perception of how good a quest is maybe dependant on ones ability to attain the final goal.

To misquote an old saying, You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not please all of the people all of the time.

So I’d say don’t worry about some people finding things un-fun. There will always be those that find whatever you do un-fun. Instead, try to make things that some people do find fun even though others might not and weave such things into your world in a way that it fits and hopefully does not turn it topsy turvy, that is unless it is meant to in a good way.

Take the new Tailored dress clothes that just came out with LU 25. Some people went bananas over them. Other accused SoE of wasting their time on trivial things when they could be doing important things like fixing XYZ that matters most to said poster. All I can say is that every person I gave a dress to was happy and we had fun.

Hybrid crafting tasks like Wyrmsteel are definitely much better than hybrid crafting tasks like the Coldain Prayer Shawl. Unfortunately while I think that the concept has merit I think in most cases the execution probably leaves something to be desired. I have to admit I’ve never done the Wyrmsteel crafting task but my guess is that it can’t be done by a pure crafter because the occasional mob slipping through or just the ’splash’ damage from AOE’s cast by the mobs would drop anyone without a lot of adventuring levels, but I have to admit I could easily be wrong about that. Even if I’m right about it that is more of a failure of a specific example rather than proof of a flawed concept. I have some concerns about it because of the danger of requiring a specific class for a raid/group activity, which I tend to want to avoid, but again that may be more of an example of failure of a specific example rather than proof of a flawed concept (and I’m not even certain how strongly I should adhere to the idea of not requiring a specific class).

Now, as far as the Coldain Prayer Shawl quest is concerned, I’m less enthusiastic about that. My primary reason is, again, my objection to forcing players to conduct activities that they simply find unpleasant rather than challenging. This isn’t to say that everyone will find the crafting unpleasant but some undoubtedly will and unless there is a comparable item that they can obtain without such activities I think they will feel compelled into activities that are simply unenjoyable rather than challenging. The detrimental effects to the crafting economy that Scott Jennings mentions are also a serious concern.

My issue isn’t that players won’t do a combined adventuring/crafting task if they don’t like crafting. My issue is that many of them will do it but having to go through all the work to level up something they really dislike will be unenjoyable for them. This is turn means that part of the game in unenjoyable, and that’s bad. First and foremost games should be fun.

I don’t think Zygwen was ever suggesting of tasks that required one character to be both the adventurer and the crafter. It is indeed undesirable to have such a requirement.

The scenario Zygwen originally laid out (in Synchronicity) actually specified that a party of crafters would enter an instance with no mobs to carry out some set of related, simultaneous tasks. The concept of the instance being devoid of mobs as a direct result of adventurer activities came later. Neither of these ideas requires a doubly-advanced character.

Multiple examples of combined crafting/adventuring tasks already exist in EQ2. The original, and probably best, was the crafting of Wyrmsteel weapons. The recipes were only available to members of a high level guild, and would only work at a specific forge hidden deep in a high level dungeon, where the adventurers had to protect the crafter. The crafter in this event was not required to be a high level adventurer. It was a wonderfully designed event, but the products were undesirable. At some point, it was intended for Wyrmsteel to be a requirement to defeat Darathar, but that fell by the wayside at some point.

Another crafter/adventurer example would be the crafting of the Symbol of Lect’Mun Sul in the Gates of Ahket Aten. Again, adventurers protect a crafter from waves of mobs as he crafts an item within a dangerous area. The chief difference here is that the crafted item was a one-charge item with a specific purpose within the zone, instead of a set of resellable, undesirable weapons. The crafter here would ideally be one of the high-level raiding adventurers, but it isn’t strictly a requirement.

Finally, the last major examples of combined crafter/adventurer activities in EQ2 are the two Heritage Quests within KoS that require the questing adventurer to also be a high-level crafter. Require. I saw that you’ve commented on Mr. Jennings’ concept of ’social whittling,’ but I’m curious what you think of his comments a few paragraphs later about Coldain Prayer Shawl-type quests. I think I could predict your stance, based on the text I quoted above.

If I had carte blanche to design some kind of crafter/adventurer activity for EQ2, I’d probably wind up with something awfully similar to Zygwen’s scenarios. I don’t think it’s necessary to have all crafters cooperating on one shared recipe; it should be enough to have each completing their own recipes towards one goal. Most importantly, it seems more feasible under EQ2’s systems. If some crafters finish their tasks early, perhaps they could perform some other task. Or they could do some social whittling.

kono

The ultra hardcore will do it because they know it is the best. Some people will do it because they think they have to, keeping up with the Jones so to speak.

My issue isn’t that players won’t do a combined adventuring/crafting task if they don’t like crafting. My issue is that many of them will do it but having to go through all the work to level up something they really dislike will be unenjoyable for them. This is turn means that part of the game in unenjoyable, and that’s bad. First and foremost games should be fun.

This doesn’t mean you have to make things ‘click here to get a Fiery Avenger’. There’s nothing wrong with challenging people but making them go through unenjoyable content (for them) doesn’t constitute a challenge. It constitutes a lack of enjoyment. That’s why I say that it’s OK to make something that is combined crafting and adventuring, just as long as there are alternate paths to get to the same or similar goals. People who really dislike crafting can take the alternate path. The don’t skip over the crafting, rather they complete some other action which is just as challenging but enjoyable to them.

My guild leader tells me that as far as he knows, only 18 guilds have beat Tarinax. Assuming that each guild had on average 50 players that is only 900 players world wide that have beat Tarinax. Does that mean we should remove locked end game content because such a small minority profits from it? Should we make Tarinax easier because only 900 players have beat it?

Hopefully I answered this up above. If not, let me reiterate that I’m not proposing that the crafting be removed so the task is easier. I am proposing there be an option to replace it with another task so that it is just as difficult but more enjoyable for those who don’t want to craft.

I might be overly optimistic but I was hoping that a system that promoted interaction between adventurers and crafters could be built.

That’s what everyone wants, I think. I really like Tipa’s suggestions about crafters who are part of the group. If crafters had some ability to bestow short term buffs on equipment as well as construct items I think you could get something close to that. Of course in such a system you wouldn’t allow people to be both adventurers and crafters as in EQII or else many adventurers would feel compelled to an unenjoyable activity in order to be effective at their class and crafters still wouldn’t be needed for groups.

The risk? Is partly measures in damage to gear but I think a larger part of the risk is the time spent in getting ready to raid. Gearing up, camping contested and doing access quest. Worse of all, staying up till 4am because that boss just won’t give up the ghost.

How is this different than the risk from a crafting raid in which pretty much the same time has to be spent setting up? My proposal is that if an adventuring raid has to camp a contested spawn then the equivalent cast raid would have to as well. Likewise if there was an access quest for the adventuring raid the same would hold for the crafting raid. And just as in the adventuring raid the crafting raid has the potential for a catastrophic failure (total wipe for a raid) or a project that continues to 4 in the morning because the lead has to keep halting the final step.

A cynic might say that by doing this you turned crafters into adventurers that spend time killing obstacles instead of mobs though.

In fact that is the model I am trying to use. By keeping the models similar you are able to balance the two much more easily. Killing mobs is replaced with completing tasks. By keeping the risks and rewards balanced you are able to let the crafters make items that are useful to adventurers without devaluing loot.

The ultra hardcore will do it because they know it is the best. Some people will do it because they think they have to, keeping up with the Jones so to speak. Others because they truly enjoy the challenge. The number of permutations of personal preferences are limitless so to base design decisions on the whims of players is difficult at best.

My guild leader tells me that as far as he knows, only 18 guilds have beat Tarinax. Assuming that each guild had on average 50 players that is only 900 players world wide that have beat Tarinax. Does that mean we should remove locked end game content because such a small minority profits from it? Should we make Tarinax easier because only 900 players have beat it?

I might be overly optimistic but I was hoping that a system that promoted interaction between adventurers and crafters could be built. The adventurers would not necessarily be present then the crafters do their part. It could be two separate instances that involved two sets of non-mutually exclusive people. Let the players figure out how to organize themselves to defeat your challenge or not. I do not expect high level crafters to max their adventure levels and vice versa in order to reach the pinnacle. The majority of players may try to approach the problem this way but that does not have to be the only solution.

“As for risk verses reward and using EQII as the model, aside from XP debt what do you risk in adventuring that you are not risking in crafting? Yes, in adventuring your character can be killed, but what is the effect of that?”

I may have a rather ironic view of risk versus reward. I raid to be part of a group and the share in their achievements. This is part of the reward. I also raid to improve my gear to raid better. Well actually no I don’t, it’s way to expensive to use my raid looted gear on raids. I raid to improve my gear to solo and group in small groups better.

The risk? Is partly measures in damage to gear but I think a larger part of the risk is the time spent in getting ready to raid. Gearing up, camping contested and doing access quest. Worse of all, staying up till 4am because that boss just won’t give up the ghost.

Compared to that, as a crafter I feel very little risk. The only risk I have is losing money. The only reward is making money. My success as a crafter is determined by the total in my bank account. However, if we set up crafting instances that are challenging and did require specialize equipment and other hoops to jump through to achieve, you could match the risk vs reward of adventuring by giving it a similar feel. A cynic might say that by doing this you turned crafters into adventurers that spend time killing obstacles instead of mobs though.

“I wouldn’t advocate a method of allowing a single person to make the equivalent reward of a 24 man hour long raid by spending 24 hours themselves.”

Truthfully, I wouldn’t propose that solution either. It is very hard to balance no mater how you cut it because some raids can finish in an hour what takes another raid 5.

When they win? _When_ they win?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh, ow, my sides.

What makes you think anybody is going to win except the gold farmers and their ilk? Airship engine, 50 dollar, you want?

–GF

This doesn’t mean that you can’t have things that require a combination of crafting and adventuring. There is nothing wrong with the idea. It is just that you have to offer similar rewards through other paths so people won’t feel compelled to undertake tasks that make them unhappy and consequently make the game less fun.

As for risk verses reward and using EQII as the model, aside from XP debt what do you risk in adventuring that you are not risking in crafting? Yes, in adventuring your character can be killed, but what is the effect of that? Wear on your equipment, which translates to money spent for the most part, the aforementioned XP debt, and possibly some inconvenience (possible lockout of a zone, resurrection sickness, maybe some travel issues). If Crafting tasks had the possibility of XP debt and similar inconveniences what would really be the difference (there’s already a risk of money loss).

You are basically right about the issue of raid content, but to prevent any imbalance, real or perceived, I wouldn’t advocate a method of allowing a single person to make the equivalent reward of a 24 man hour long raid by spending 24 hours themselves. Doing such a thing would create a divide as crafters argue that an adventurer only has to spend and hour as long as he gets other people to help him while adventurers would argue that crafters don’t have to deal with the headaches of coordinating a raid and can get their content solo.

Now concerning crafters determining the product ahead of time, that is a little bit of a shorthand. Ideally the crafting system should be set up so that it is nigh impossible for a crafter to craft a perfect version of a product. Instead there are always rolls along the way that guarantee the product will always be less than perfect. As a result every item produced would have some variation, resulting in crafters not having absolute control over the final product. However, they still would have more control over the product than an adventurer since they would choose to work on a sword or a shield or breastplate while the adventurer has practically no control over what the loot table will drop.